Hey Rod.
I’m just wondering about how to speed up some development/enhancements that would benefit Social Networking -sites. Myself, I’m trying to build a Computer Gamer SN-site, so I could use anything that would create more content (better design & controls, more user settings, better integration with other module vendors (like xmod), rating, forums and much more). Content = Stickiness. Stickiness = Users that will explore site and come back.

Then I thought of Sponsored Enhancements with a twist. How would you feel if we were a few people that together would pay you the money, for you to make some sponsored enhancements?

An ex. – could be any number of people.
Four people need enhancements for the group module.
1. We post a specification (something us 4 all agree upon)
2. You give us a price for the development of the enhancement (say $800)
3. We pay you up front (4 ppl $200 each)
4. You top prioritize the development of the enhancement
5. Enhancement released to us
6. Enhancement becomes standard for module in its next version cycle (in this ex the group module)

The reasons for the “need” to speed up things up are some of us have similar needs but they differ from what you are building with diypoker.com. Your need for future development and indeed your modules, originate from the development of diypoker.com. Our (many of us) needs originate from our users diversity, their data – on which we have slapped your fine ST-modules. Basically Poker is “just” a group or an event at our sites.

Potential enhancements could be of this nature: http://www.smart-thinker.com/Home/Forums/tabid/111/forumid/26/threadid/5919/scope/posts/Default.aspx

 
So Rod and the rest of you reading, what do you think about idea?
/jesper

Wow, it is such a coincidence that you mention this - I am exploring alternative ways of improving the Social Networking Product Suite and this is one of the ways I was investigating further. *EDIT* - Skip this post if you want to get to the details on how Crowd Sourcing might work

In fact, this is almost exactly what I was considering - there are a few facts that one needs to appreciate first (I have always tried to be as open and transparent as always) -

1. Smart-Thinker's primary revenue stream is NOT based on module sales
2. Every customer thinks their enhancement request is critical and the most important
3. The Smart-Thinker Social Networking Product Suite is COMPLEX (due to it's flexibility and power)
4. The Smart-Thinker modules are constantly improving and are going to get a lot better (long term goals?)
5. Enhancements get done on a cost/benefit basis (I am running a business)

Basically I do not make much money off Module Sales to justify spending 6 days a week, 7 hours a day trying to fulfill everyone's request (I actually work 7 days a week, 10-12 hours days but some of this time is on PokerDIY and the rest is on development). I make most of my money off Sponsored Enhancements and consulting work/premium support (which I am trying to do less of now and focus more on development). I am definitely not complaining, but customers need to realize that although they have paid $69 for all the modules it does not mean I can then spend 7 days working on the ideas they suggest, as much as I would like to. I am sure that some DNN companies DO make money off sales alone and I am happy for them. As a small DNN company module sales are NOT our primary source of income nor do I think it ever will be as competition increases and software gets cheaper.

Which leads to the second point - every customer thinks that their particular use-case and enhancement is top priority and should be done immediately. They are almost surprised that the product doesn't do "xyz" (even though I provide free fully-functional trial downloads so that you configure it and see if it matches your requirements) and practically demand that the next version do this. Again, I am not complaining, I do this myself with modules I purchase (although as a fellow module developer I ask nicely ;). It is just a fact I have noticed and have come to expect (if you browse the Smart-Thinker forums you may see some examples of this).

As I mentioned, the Smart-Thinker Product Suite is complex. This is a good and a bad thing (complexity these days normally = bad). They are complex because of the templating and amount of configuration options. These are required to suit as many different scenarios and website requirements as possible. As I found out with my custom Poker Leagues module - I can develop a LOT faster if I do not do it this way and hardcode values and make it specific to my business logic. But then I would not be able to sell them. Unfortunately this complexity increases support time and decreases development time, so finding a balance is important. Likewise, just like the core team (no offense intended, without these guys we would not have jobs!) - Documentation is another aspect that suffers. I can spend less time developing and more time documenting, but then I would get even more complaints about features. It's one of the reasons I try to redirect every support request to the forum to make it a form of live documentation. Many thanks to you Jesper for maintaining the Module Configuration Document - this has helped a lot of people and saves me a lot of time (to spend on development ;)

I am often asked on the long-term goals of Smart-Thinker and I can assure you we are here for the long run. Smart-Thinker has been releasing DNN modules since around 2005 and is here to stay. PokerDIY.com is our very own live social networking site and drives our requirements (which are normally generic social networking requirements). We do not focus on module sales and try to make everyone happy. We use a live, real, succesful social network to identify flaws in the modules and improve them so that you can use them on your social networks. This is an important point - there are DNN companies that pander to every whim and do not have a real live scenario to use the products on (again, there is nothing wrong with that, it's just a comparison on the revenue income focus). We have an online example that our modules work and a real example on how to implement them. Feel free to set up an account (this helps us!) and do some testing on PokerDIY (althougth please bear in mind it is a live site and used by a lot of people). PokerDIY is doing VERY well (over 1000 unique visitors a day) and is about to crack the Alexa 100k. We have BIG plans for PokerDIY and investing a lot of time AND money into it. It is another revenue stream for Smart-Thinker and there is about 6 months to 1 year of development enhancements lined up for the Smart-Thinker modules (and some new modules). Every day customers request more features and these are added to the list if they are good and will benefit the core product.

Which brings me to the last point - Enhancements are prioritized on a Cost/Benefit basis. Yes, at the end of the day we are running a business and no income = no more development. Therefore every single enhancement (whether it is PokerDIY-driven or suggested by anyone else) is subjected to the same review process. Will it benefit the core product? If no, then I am afraid it is not going to make it in. We offer the source for this very reason and you are welcome to outsource it to someone or modify it yourself to meet your specific requirements. If it will benefit the core product, then how long is it going to take to develop? The longer it will take the more it costs Smart-Thinker to develop, so will the rewards be worth it? As I mentioned, this is a business and money makes the world go round. It has to be very beneficial if it is going to take more than a day of development (as I mentioned earlier, I personally choose to work 7 days a week, 10 hour days on average, so my time is valuable to me, more so than money). Please do not be insulted if I cannot commit to it. I have had some very rude customers on Smart-Thinker (I won't name/shame them - their posts are public). A good example is the Recurring Events feature in the Events module. Realistically this is going to take 5-7 days of serious development. I need this feature on PokerDIY but it STILL doesn't mean that I can afford to spend 7 days working on it. It is simple not worth the time spent on it.

So... with all this in mind (and I am open to discuss any of these points) - how to best move forward? This is where I get back to the point of this topic - Group-Sponsored Enhancements, or Crowd Sourcing as I like to refer to it.

My idea was pretty much the same. I will follow up with another post (there's a lot to absorb here!)

Alright,

this all sounds great, so how do we get started - So as a test project, can we start some thread for members that are actually interrested in sponsoring the Recurring Event project? Rod, if you set something up I'll definetelly add my thoughts/specs later today in regards to this upgrade.

Great ideas in regards to group module updates Jesper, I would definetelly want this to happen as well so count me in.

Thanks

Erland

I forgot to mention - this proposed new development method would NOT mean that I only develop features if they are sponsored. As before - I will still make bug fixes and enhancements to the product suite. This is referring to the major roadmap items (but could apply to minor items if you wish to fasttrack them through). Likewise, if a single entity still wants to sponsor an item on their own and have more say over it this is also acceptable.

I am also seriously considering reducing the cost of the Smart-Thinker Product Suite modules if this works. The source product suites and enterprise licenses would be about the same but the fully-functional single portal versions would be cheaper to all. This of course depends on whether or not there are enough willing customers to chip in and sponsor enhancements (the purpose of this thread ;) Please comment....

Jesper wrote Crowd Sourcing is really the revese angle, where many entities create the source and one make the specs and the payment. Its comparable to Out Sourcing, letting one entity create the source, and one make the specs and the payment.   This would be more like Crowd Sponsored Enhancements. Many would make the specs and payment, one will deliver the source.

hmm - I think the word "Crowd Sourcing" is a bit misleasding in this case (due to the word "source") but it is crowdsourcing the funds to sponsor the project. You may be on to something there though - one day people who want to code and put up bids and do the work to. I manage the whole process and everyone is a winner ;)

George Lew wrote The worst part is, DNN Core forum always seems to have Searching Issue... George.

George,

Try using the Google advanced search and direct it to the Smart-Thinker website.

http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en

Steve

Thx for the positive thinking mr Steve J. :) 
Regarding FaceB and MySp as a guide to what the rest of us want I would have to disagree. Why remake FaceB and MySp?

To move ahead: Rodney, did you make some estimates yes? 

Rodney, I think this is a very slippery slope.  Yes, I've sponsored enhancements with DNN Module developers before, or purchased source and done the work internally, but working on a mixed mode revenue model can have many issues.  I think there are really three ways to operate:

1. Product purchases with support/upgrades (like you are now where I can "buy in" to the module and updates for a time period)
         a. A version of this could include levels of support/upgrade for more money (hobby, professional, enterprise).
3. Subscriptions where it operates like a cooperative.  For example, I pay a set yearly fee for a specific subscription period (like Ventrian).  Again, levels here would work.
4. Product Customization Services.  Basically, developing add-ons and extensions on a per client or group of client's basis.

I say a mixed mode product/crowd enhancement funding is slippery because:

1. Customers who bought into a yearlong subscription with ST would expect that you will develop that list of upgrades anyway, otherwise they would simply pay my minimum product fee and move on (less revenue)
2. Who decides what features get developed?  The sponsor with the most money or the total community?
3. What happens to good ideas that are not funded? 
4. Do you miss market opportunities because someone is paying you to work on their feature set, but the market (and your competitors) are outflanking your overall functionality?
5. You end up with a class of service between customers.  Not always good for community development around your modules.

Basically what I hear is that you are not really a module developer.  Your modules are great and took SN on DNN forward quickly, but are a secondary revenue stream for you based on your "other business".  As a customer, this is frustrating because (and I understand why) you can't dedicate the time and attention to module development as you need to "follow the money".   This makes customers less inclined to re-purchase modules (or extend support/upgrades) given that there is not really a commitment to releasing functionality for the community needs.

I hear you when you say its $69 folks and it can't be everything to everyone at the price.  I get that.  In fact I think DNN modules are far too inexpensive right now as developers can easily re-purpose code from other projects, put it on snowcovered and sell it cheap on the side.  This works for a while until it grows and takes up more time to support and fix but because it's so cheap you can't afford to hire people to support it and move it forward, etc.  I see this cycle a lot with DNN and a lot of good modules get shelved after a year because the developer can't leave their "job" to fix/upgrade their modules to a point where they can leave their job.  This is coming from someone who spends about $10,000 annually on DNN, skins and modules not to mention has three people on payroll who develop our own internal modules and support our DNN implementations.  It would be far cheaper for me to pay more for enterprise level modules that to support a full staff and infrastructure around "cheap" modules.

I personally would rather see you either raise the price of your modules (or offer different levels: hobby, professional, enterprise) and combine it with a yearly support/upgrade subscription, or move it to a pure subscription model.  $100 for a yearlong subscription over 1000 customers or $500 across 200 customers is not a bad income for a single developer company on DNN module development.  For this however you would need to have the customers (which is hard to do) but you could then fund development efforts and return feature updates based on the community shaping the product around market driven implementation needs.  Again, I go back to Ventrian as a model that seems to work for customers. 

Lastly, this entire post is not meant to be an attack or negative...quite the contrary.  I think your modules have huge potential and I think customers would gladly pay more for a yearly subscription if they knew what and when new features are coming out and felt like you were developing in a direction that kept your modules innovative for our use (rather than just yours) while moving SN on DNN forward all the time.